Unleashing the Photoshop Master Mindset w/ Anna McNaught

[00:00:00] Anna McNaught: My art teacher decided that she didn't like what I was doing, what I was creating. She was mad that I was spending most of my time in the design studio working on Photoshop rather than working on my fine arts skills, which I already had a background in. And she said, if you don't start putting your focus into your artwork and less time focused on boys and design, you're never gonna go anywhere.

You're never gonna amount to anything. And she said I could pretty much kiss my art career goodbye which resulted in a lot of tears.

 And so I kind of had this attitude right from high school of I wanna prove her wrong. I wanna become an artist, I wanna start a design career and I'm not gonna let her stop me and I'm gonna show her that I am gonna become a household name someday. 

[00:00:52] Jesús Ramirez: Today's creator is Anna McNaught, a world renowned digital artist and creator. Anna is a Photoshop master whose surreal images have captivated a global audience, and her passion for teaching has inspired countless others. Just soon after recording this episode, Anna was hired by Adobe as a Senior Design Evangelist.

In today's episode, Anna discusses her path to becoming a digital artist, her passion for teaching, and her mindset for success.

[00:01:16] Jesus Ramirez: Hey, Anna, how's it going? Thank you so much for joining me.

Introduction

[00:01:18] Anna McNaught: Hey, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. 

[00:01:22] Jesus Ramirez: I'm super excited to talk to you every time we're in person, I feel that we have like hour, two hour long conversations, so I couldn't wait to have you on the podcast because I think that we're gonna have a lot of fun and it's gonna be both entertaining, but also very educational for people listening. So I'm very excited to talk to you about your story and who you are. 

Talking about that, why don't you let us know a little bit about yourself. How would you describe yourself? Because I know you have a lot of commas after your name, so let's, let's, let's talk a little bit about that.

[00:01:50] Anna McNaught: Yeah, that's something that I was like, you know, we no longer have to be a one person title. We can have tons of commas and I sure have a ton of commas. So, um, but to describe myself in a nutshell, I am a digital artist, a photographer, a designer, a world traveler, a plant lover. Um, and I kind of, uh, to sum it all up, I studied photography and design in college and fell in love with it.

And, uh, worked the corporate life for a little while and decided to start my own business. And I quickly became known for my surreal digital art that I create in Photoshop. I started teaching other people how to do that and have built a whole business around that. So that's kind of the very quick sum up of me. 

Anna's Catalyst For Pursuing Her Art Career

[00:02:40] Jesus Ramirez: You, you do it all. And we were talking off air and one of the things that I admire you not only as a creator artist and all of that, most is your mindset. I think that in order to be at the level of success that you have, making a living out of your passion, you have to have a certain mindset. , and I think you definitely have that. And as I mentioned to you earlier, off air, I was doing a little bit of research about you and I found something very interesting that I don't think I knew. and if you told me I forgot to, I'm sorry. But, um, I read that when you were just in school, you had a teacher, if I'm not mistaken, who, said some pretty nasty things about you becoming an artist, telling you that you will never amount to anything, you know, much less become an artist or designer which when, when I read that I was like, oh my God, what kind of teacher would say that to someone, anybody? so, tell me a little bit about that story, but more importantly, I'm assuming that maybe even l, you know, put this desire in you to prove them wrong. I assume. So I want to talk more about that, but I want to hear the whole story and then how your mindset handled that situation. 

[00:03:52] Anna McNaught: Yes. Oh my God.

It's so funny because everybody who knows me really well has heard that story at some point. Whether they've read it or have heard me bitch about it for years is like, okay, Anna, time to get over it, you've been outta high school for how long? 

But, um, yes. I would say it was a big kind of catalyst that pushed me forward in my art career. And, basically my art teacher decided that she didn't like what I was doing, what I was creating. She was mad that I was spending most of my time in the design studio working on Photoshop rather than working on my fine arts skills, which I already had a background in. Um, and she said, if you don't start putting your focus into your artwork and less time focused on boys and design, you're never gonna go anywhere.

You're never gonna amount to anything. She refused to write a college, letter for me. She refused to help me get into any schools, and she said I could pretty much kiss my art career goodbye which resulted in a lot of tears and me walking down to the principal's office to actually, she sent me to the principal's office, and then I went down there and told him that she was harassing me.

So then he ended up on my side.

 I think I talked back to her. I'm, I am luckily forgetting the details at this point, you know, but, um, yeah. And so I kind of had this attitude right from high school of I wanna prove her wrong. I want to, this is something that I wanna do. I wanna become an artist, I wanna start a design career and I'm not gonna let her stop me and I'm gonna show her that I am gonna become a household name someday.

So that was the beginning of that. And then, I have, you know, been slowly working on trying to get that out of my mind so that it doesn't hold me back as well.

[00:05:48] Jesus Ramirez: Right. I do think that, to a degree, those type of situations help certain kinds of people push forward. I can speak for, for me, as an example, I have a lot, I have several situations like that. I mentioned some of the podcasts where somebody has said a negative thing and my entire being is like, I'm gonna prove this person wrong. And then it helps to, to, get to the next level. It's not always good and people react to situations differently, but I do think that with certain people, it definitely pushes them and drives them.

Anna in Los Angeles

[00:06:20] Jesus Ramirez: So you mentioned that you went to school in LA is that where you went to school? 

[00:06:25] Anna McNaught: Uh, no. I went to Savannah College of Arts Design.

[00:06:28] Jesús Ramirez: Oh, sorry. Okay, 

[00:06:28] Anna McNaught: And then transferred to Ithaca College. 

[00:06:31] Jesus Ramirez: Oh, but you lived in LA at some point? 

[00:06:34] Anna McNaught: Yeah. Yeah. So Ithaca had a LA program and that sent me out there for an internship. And then after college I loved it so much that I moved out there and lived there for six years and met my now husband out there and, 

[00:06:48] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah,

[00:06:50] Anna McNaught: Yeah. 

[00:06:51] Jesus Ramirez: LA is such an interesting place. I think that a lot of people who move to LA are people who are trying to make it in some way or another, and it, it, it just creates for a very interesting, environment of people. But one thing that I, I didn't know about you is that I heard that while you were there and and I'm gonna just briefly give a description about something. And then you fill in the blank. I read that you interviewed for an escort service. 

Accidental Interview With An Escort Service

[00:07:20] Anna McNaught: I was, I was wondering if that was gonna come up because I was like, where's he filling? Where's he pulling this information from? 

[00:07:29] Jesus Ramirez: And uh, and a follow up question to that, is that where the nickname McNaughty comes from?

[00:07:35] Anna McNaught: No, the McNaughty name has been around my whole life and not for reasons you may think. Mostly because I was just bad. getting into trouble. Um, and yes, so I did interview with an escort service accidentally.

I thought that I was gonna be kind of like a model side piece, type thing. And please, audience don't judge me for that. It was the early days of living in LA and trying to make money any way I could. Um, I wanted to model, I wanted to get into the Hollywood glam and everything. And yes, I ended up at this restaurant with this couple and, uh, he was talking to me about what I would be doing and all of a sudden I realized, oh my God, this is not what I thought.

And this is going in a lot more explicit detail of what I'm gonna be doing. He wanted me to have a trial with him and his girlfriend, and as I said, I would think about it. I was so nervous that I, uh, gave them both a hug as I left. And I was like, thank you so much. Like, I'll let you know this was such an honor and had a full breakdown. moment.

[00:08:49] Jesus Ramirez: How old were you at this time? 

[00:08:50] Anna McNaught: Um, 22.

[00:08:53] Jesus Ramirez: Oh, you're just a baby. Yeah, 

[00:08:54] Anna McNaught: Yeah.

From Employee To Business Owner

[00:08:55] Jesus Ramirez: That's so funny. Um, but on a more serious note, I read that, by the way, and it was, it was hilarious. I had to ask you, um, on a more serious note though, so you started learning design and doing all these things. And what led from you learning these skills to saying, screw it, I'm gonna start my own business, whether it's a design business, or Leave The Map, which we are gonna get into a little later on.

Like, what was that transition like? 

[00:09:23] Anna McNaught: Yeah, so I was working at a dental company as their graphic designer and I was in Chatsworth, California. If anyone knows that area, it's pretty blah. And, um, a windowless office. I was just totally miserable. The people I were, I was working with were pretty cool, but, um, I was working on boring dental design material and, and always having to revise stuff and just, never being able to go outside, never being able to do anything creative and different. And I just started to feel like I was losing a huge part of myself and losing all the things that make me happy. And so during any time I had a little bit of free time or lunch breaks, I would make kind of the Photoshop composites that I've become known for. I started just editing stuff that I would find on stock and then mixing some of my photography and started playing with that.

And so many people responded positive positively to it, that I was like okay, this is kind of working. Let's see where it goes. And I started getting a couple clients, and then people were like, how did you do this, how did you make these composites? How did you grow your Instagram so fast? And that's when I was like, okay, ding, ding, ding. I'm gonna teach people how to do this. And I remember I, quit my job and then launched my first course right afterwards and we moved apartments and we got married. 

[00:10:53] Jesus Ramirez: Oh, you were engaged at this point. 

[00:10:55] Anna McNaught: We were engaged. Yeah. And we, so I quit my job in february. We had all these things lined up and then we got married in September. So it was like a year of major life changes on top of starting a business.

So yeah, it was a lot, but I just, I, it was really this moment of, I'm so unhappy, I need something else.

[00:11:15] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah. And you know what, it, it seems like you have a very strong support system consisting of James, your husband, your family. I, I imagine that that helps in making those incredible, life-changing decisions because as someone who didn't have such a strong system, it can make it more difficult.

I'm sure you had some level of, of stress when you were making these decisions, but do you remember like, what was that final straw that said Screw it. I'm, I'm just gonna go for it.

[00:11:44] Anna McNaught: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. And, and yes, I am very lucky. I have the most incredible support system. Like I'm so blessed in that way, from friends to family, to James. And so that, that was really great. But I think it was just, I, so I had planned to be at this job for maybe a year or so at this dental company. I ended up being there for three years and things were just kind of slowly starting to fall apart there within the company. The jobs I was getting or the designs I was working on were getting more and more boring, like these charts and stuff. I can't remember exactly what the straw was, that broke the camel's back as much as it was just all these little things leading up.

I finally started to have a little bit of an income tipping point that helped too. I started to be making enough to feel like I could quit. Um, but one of the things that I remember so fondly from that moment was I kind of toyed with the idea with my, uh, boss. And I said, Hey, look, I'm thinking about quitting.

I'm gonna put my month notice in. Cause they wanted a month for me, and I, I just need to go out on my own. And he was so upset by it that he said, and he was, uh, like around retirement age, and he said, if you are quitting, I'm quitting. And so we ended up quitting at the same time. And it was, and I think in talking to him about it and then him saying that, that was one of those like, okay, I can do this. It's time.

[00:13:14] Jesus Ramirez: Right. And what was like the first time that you realized, you know what, I've made the right decision. When did you start seeing that stress get off your shoulders and say, you know what? I made the right choice. 

[00:13:28] Anna McNaught: Within 20 minutes.

[00:13:30] Jesus Ramirez: That quickly. Wow. Well, it, took me, it took me a couple months when I started seeing some paychecks come in, 

[00:13:35] Anna McNaught: Yep. Exactly. No, it, it felt so good right away. I remember though, that weekend was so stressful because of moving and everything, and we had a friend visiting and I think that first week it was a lot of tears and a lot of, oh my God, I'm so scared.

But it, yeah, it was around the time when I started getting paid on my own and I think probably like a Monday morning I woke up and realized I didn't have to go into an office. And that was a big moment of I'm free. And it took a long time for that to finally set in, you know.

Anna's Business Sense

[00:14:09] Jesús Ramirez: Yeah. You know? I don't know if you remember, you and I had lunch at a sushi bar, in Alameda where I grew up, and I think I drove over to the airport right after that. 

And was, a conversation where I remember thinking, that's why she's successful. And we talked about mindset, but also you were talking a lot about the business side of what we do, the training, the artwork, the clients and all this stuff. And you were talking about, sales funnels and sales pages and email list and all these things that usually when I sit down and talk with an artist, the conversation primarily is dominated by Photoshop or, you know, design, color, whatever. But our conversation was primarily business. And I just remember thinking, oh my God, this is, there you go. This is why. This is why. Yes, she's a great artist, no doubt about it, but in my perspective, that's like the minimum, uh, like you should be good. the way that I see it, it's almost like, you know, like the N B A, everybody's a good basketball player, right? So like that goes without saying. So what else do you have? In my opinion it was that, where does that come from? Is that something that you had to learn on your own? Was that, you know, from James or your family or, you know, like for me, I had to develop that I didn't have it in me. And it took many, many years of developing that business sense. What about you? Where did that come from?

[00:15:29] Anna McNaught: I think it, it also started while I was working at this job, just like doing so much research, and I think I got really lucky because it was kind of the beginning of this digital marketing era where everyone was obsessed with it. It was like, Tony Robbins And all those guys who were teaching everything.

And then now we look at him kind of like, ugh. But um, at the time it was such a, fresh perspective on what most people were used to and we're all used to going into an office and now, oh, we can work from anywhere and we can have this entire business built on our computers. So I just was learning everything I could.

I signed up for a ton of different courses teaching me how to grow a business, and then I was just really, really fascinated by it. And I enjoyed it a lot too. I think. Um, I've always been kind of a big picture person, so I like to look at the whole thing and then kind of decide how I can, I mean, also paired with my desire to help people.

But then yeah, so kind of looking at the big picture and then coming down into like, how can we make this system better and how can we grow it and expand it? And so, um, digital marketing just was really fascinating. And I signed up for a course through General Assembly in LA and then became certified in digital marketing.

And that was when it really opened a lot of doors for me. Um, and then, yeah, I think just for me it was really about, uh, continuing my education in every possible way that I could in that direction because I knew it would make me successful. 

[00:17:05] Jesus Ramirez: How did that training, either from General Assembly or the other courses that you took online influence the content that you were creating? 

[00:17:12] Anna McNaught: I think it started to make the content have more of a purpose and be, um, either directly trying to help people in terms of teaching them something or it really helped me relate back to my bigger message. So, for example, an Instagram post would have a caption that would drive someone to my email list and then my email list would drive them into my website or my courses. So I was starting to make things that had like a full trickle effect.

Strategies for Brand Growth

[00:17:43] Jesus Ramirez: Mm-hmm. How are you now strategizing to grow your email list, considering all the changes that are happening on Instagram, which is, the platform that I, think, is your primary platform?

[00:17:54] Anna McNaught: Yes, very good question. Um, so to be totally honest, I have kind of gotten away from the email list stuff. Um, So with my own page, with my art and everything, I actually canceled my email list mainly because, um, I didn't want to be doing as much on the course side for a little bit of time. Um, I didn't wanna be doing the free classes that I was doing, and I wanted to go more in the art direction and really just focus on that.

However, now I'm kind of coming back into teaching again. this has been, as you and I talked privately a few weeks ago, it's been a very, um, A big time for me of transition and figuring out what the heck I'm doing with my life right now. So it's been a couple phases of get reading, get getting rid of things, bringing them back, getting rid of others, not bringing them back. Um, and then, so yeah, we, I don't have the email list for myself anymore. We're still using it for Leave The Map, uh, not as much as we were, uh, about a year ago or so, but then to answer your second question, if I were to be doing that for myself, I think continuing to offer free content through my email list.

Um, and then on Leave The Map, we just have uh, a call to action in our bio on Instagram and then a free guide, and that continues to bring multiple people a day, even without pushing it at this point. 

So, um, yeah, I think we could be doing a better job of on all fronts of continuing to grow that, but it just hasn't been a priority right now.

About "Leave The Map"

[00:19:27] Jesus Ramirez: No, makes total sense. And, um, you brought up Leave The Map so we haven't talked about it in the show. What is Leave the map?

[00:19:34] Anna McNaught: So Leave The Map is the company that my husband James and I started together and it's kind of a photography and video traveling creative agency I would say. 

Um, we do a lot of stuff on TikTok, a lot of brand work, and we did Van life for two years and we're able to travel the country and which has now expanded into international travel and working with five star hotels and tourism boards and brands, and it's just been a total dream come true to do that as well.

Like having two businesses is just, I'm very lucky. I'm also very overworked sometimes. 

[00:20:14] Jesus Ramirez: Aren't we all? It's hard to say no. 

[00:20:17] Anna McNaught: I know. 

[00:20:18] Jesus Ramirez: I didn't need to start a podcast, but I wanted to start a podcast. And I was, you know, like, so my team consists of three people and myself, and I told my team, I was like, you know what? I have no business plan for this podcast.

I wanna do a podcast. It's gonna cost X amount of dollars a month to produce. I don't care. I'll figure it out in episode 10. I just wanna have a podcast. And that was like, but why? Like, there's no, you know, I just wanted to do it. Um, and to be frank with you, the first time that I, uh, I opened up a Google Doc and started making notes about creating the podcast was back in 2013 when the Photoshop Training Channel was one year old.

 I wanted to have this podcast, and it's always been in the back of my head. And I was like, screw it. Now's the time. And, but the point that I'm trying to make is, is for people like us, we just have to keep creating. It's just, it is what it is.

Um, talking about Leave The Map in TikTok, as I understand it. Your first video got a million views or so. And and it was on getting the, like, how to get your mail when you're traveling or something like that. 

[00:21:19] Anna McNaught: Yes. So I'm trying to remember if that was the first one that vent went viral. I think it might have been, yeah, it was how to get your mail while traveling. It was just a video of me, like getting a bunch of boxes thrown at me. Um, and that one did really, really well. And then a few months later I posted how to shower in a van.

And that one was what blew up? Uh, it got 6 million views. It was like all over Reddit and Yahoo and like different random things that was like, this couple shows how to shower in a van and people are not happy about it.

[00:21:51] Jesus Ramirez: That's so funny. And it it doesn't hurt that both you and your husband James are very attractive people, so I imagine it makes for a very good video of you guys showering in the van. 

[00:22:00] Anna McNaught: Yes. People were, people had some comments, people were really really annoyed by it and just grossed out and are like, why don't you buy a house? 

And I was like, man, these people on TikTok are mean.

On Handling Negative Comments

[00:22:14] Jesus Ramirez: How do you handle that, by the way? I imagine that as a, a female content creator, you get a lot of unnecessary hate, not even just about your, your work, it could just be about your looks or anything. How do you handle those negative comments?

[00:22:28] Anna McNaught: Yeah, so that's something that, you know, I think I'll be working on for a while, but because it really did used to upset me a lot. Like I would go on TikTok to look at our latest video and read comments and respond and try to engage and, and then I'd see stuff that would get me just really worked up and upset and I'd say, James, oh my God, like, look at what somebody said. And this was in 2020, So, I think it was as TikTok was just kind of coming to the scene before people were like, yeah, that's just TikTok. People are mean, whatever. Um, and, he would let it roll off of him, whereas I would absorb it a lot more. And then I started to just kind of be like, okay, this is how people are.

They're just not used to it. They're not educated about whatever the thing is that we're teaching. So a number of times I would either just like kind of respond with a snarky comment back, like a little, okay, punch you back. Um, but in a nice way. Or I would say, actually no, like this isn't be, uh, a lot of times we would get comments that were like, Oh, it must be nice being a trust fund kid and not working and traveling the world in a van.

And I'd say, actually no. We work really hard and we work on the go. We have a whole wifi set up. Here's a video that shows you exactly what we do for work. So just kind of firing back at them. But, uh, it did get to me a lot and, and eventually I think I decided I was over TikTok and getting abused all the time.

[00:23:59] Jesus Ramirez: Yes and and that's what I think a lot of people don't realize, uh, about people who do things. Like when people who us who put ourselves out there, we have a lot of input coming in more than the average person. And that can be very mentally draining. And I'm fortunate in the context of I do get hate, but it's very, very small considering how large the audience is. And even that small hate still gets to me.

And I, I don't know about you, but sometimes there'll be a comment on there that just lingers for days and just annoys me. 

And for me, it doesn't annoy me if I do something in Photoshop and there's an, a better way or a different way or whatever, or I made a mistake, I'm actually, oh my God, thank you so much.

Like, you're right, I made that mistake. But it really bothers me when it's just a blatant attack. Because like the ghetto part of me wants to write an, to write an essay on there, but I can't do that. It's just so funny how, people react to your content and, I was just having this conversation last night with my fiance where I posted something on TikTok and I was getting a lot of comments that were wrong about what I was showing.

And I told her, you know what? I can't imagine being a scientist or somebody who has spent their entire life with something that is like verifiably provable through the scientific method. And then having people like say, no, the earth is flat. You know, like I just, I just wouldn't be able to handle that because with like something as inconsequential as Photoshop, I get annoyed that, oh no, that's not how it works. And why are you writing me this essay on how this is, how it works when I know that's incorrect. 

And because you're saying this, it shows that you don't know what you're talking about, and it gets me worked up. I can't even imagine, being some sort of scientist dealing with that online.

[00:25:47] Anna McNaught: Oh my God. Me either. And the things people say are just crazy. It's like, oh, you really have that much time on your hand to go through and write these. 

[00:25:57] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah. 

[00:25:57] Anna McNaught: It's like, get a life. 

[00:25:58] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah. I don't have time to text my friends. I barely text you.

[00:26:02] Anna McNaught: I know, 

[00:26:02] Jesus Ramirez: I don't have time to go, go, and go and text random strangers about, you know, some, uh, that doesn't even matter. It is just so silly. 

[00:26:10] Anna McNaught: I know. 

Anna On Being A Female Creater On Male-Dominated Industry 

[00:26:11] Jesus Ramirez: So I, I mentioned something just a moment ago about, the comments that you would get as a female creator.

And in doing some of my research, I saw that you posted something very interesting, and I'm actually looking for the specific quote. And I, I wrote it down because I, I found it very interesting. You wrote the largely male dominated digital manipulation world on Instagram.

I wanted to be the premiere female photographer and digital artist. I would make a niche for myself, combining my love of photography and graphic design, which I thought was like super, uh, both inspiring, but I like that goal of like, this is what I'm going to do.

The question is, when did you say that? And do you feel like you've achieved that?

[00:26:54] Anna McNaught: That, I love that question. Um, I think I wrote that. Again, while I was working at this corporate job, um, my boss was also a copywriter and really good with creative over overview of things. And we worked together on tons of projects after we both quit. Uh, still one of my very good friends, he was at our wedding, he and his wife. Um, and so he kind of helped me figure out what am I trying to say here? And I remember sitting down with him, and seeing like so many people on Instagram who have had a lot of success are males. And I felt like, the female audience or the female, uh, artists weren't getting represented as well and there were a couple that were kind of growing and and I was like, I, I feel like I've been struggling and that people aren't following me as much because of being a woman. And like, maybe, I don't know, maybe that's a generalization, but I also, um, was kind of feeling that way at the time. And so I do feel like I have achieved that in many ways, like especially, what was it now, two weeks ago, being in San Francisco with a bunch of people and seeing a even split of males and females and having some of my best female artist friends there with me.

But then also being with like you and Aaron Nace and some of the top male creators. I mean, I still pinch myself sometimes that I'm friends with you and Aaron, the people who taught me Photoshop, and now I feel like I'm right alongside of you guys and it's such a surreal, incredible moment. So I think I have achieved it. 

[00:28:37] Jesus Ramirez: A hundred percent. I mean, they use your mushroom image for one of the Adobe Max presentations when they release, what was it, Photoshop, 2021, if I'm not mistaken, 22. 

[00:28:46] Anna McNaught: Photoshop on the iPad for that. Yeah. And then I think was that, yeah. And then, um, last year they used my octopus lighthouse thing. 

[00:28:57] Jesus Ramirez: Yes. Yes, yes. So your artwork is being shown on the demos to showcase their applications. 

Um, you mentioned, becoming this, this artist, and I think you've achieved it. I mean, you've gotten to speak at least from my perspective, at the largest creativity event in the world, Adobe Max.

One of the largest at the very least. And I was there front row seats. I was right in front of you when you were giving your presentation. But I, I think you've a hundred percent achieved it. And you were mentioning the event we did a week ago in San Francisco, so it was a room of about what, what would you say? 30, 30, 40 people give or take. 

And as you mentioned, a lot of big creators. You mentioned Aaron Nace, Vanessa Rivera, who designed the cover art for Photoshop 2019 or 2020, either or, um, the one with her kids, uh, the magical scene. But anyway, the point is, is that you were in that group of people.

So a hundred percent in my eye at least, you've definitely achieved it. 

Um, one of the, no, for sure. For sure. 

The Mindset For Success

[00:29:58] Jesus Ramirez: So we, we talked about earlier that mindset was one of the reasons why I consider that you were this successful and we've now this established that you've reached a certain level of success. What does mindset mean to you? Because I've, I've heard that word not only, uh, from a little bit in this interview, but more on other interviews you've done in other things you've done publicly. What does that mean to you? Like if somebody, if, if somebody were to ask you, I want to have the mindset to succeed, what would, how would you describe that?

[00:30:23] Anna McNaught: Yeah, I, I think it's a pairing of kind of the, um, business hustle like that world, um, mixed with the rest and calm and relaxation. And so I think it's really important to have this mix of both and a balance of both. You You have to be kind of a self-motivated person, and that's something that I luckily just have always had naturally, I've always had a desire to get my hands dirty and start something, or start a business or that entrepreneurial mindset, but something I've struggled with my whole life is not beating myself up when I'm not working, um, not feeling that guilt and reminding myself that it's okay to rest or it's okay to do things that aren't bettering or advancing my career. And so one of the things that I've worked really hard on in the past year or two is just getting in touch with who I am internally. And I won't go to woo woo on this podcast for you, but, um, it cool. I'm always down for that. So, um, just slowing down and touching base with myself and figuring out whether it's through meditation or for me. like I'm not a huge meditator, But I love going for walks in nature. As you can see behind me, it's all green and beautiful. I live in a gorgeous area, so it means hiking, it means journaling, um, painting, anything that just slows me down and lets my mind rest. And I think when I do that I have a much easier and better time doing the business side of things. And, um, yeah, so 

[00:32:08] Jesus Ramirez: overwhelming. 

[00:32:09] Anna McNaught: for me, I would say is that pairing.

Jesus and Anna On Self-Worth

[00:32:11] Jesus Ramirez: Right. And a related question, I read that one of the biggest challenges for you, um, that you had to overcome in the in design industry as an artist was your self-worth. 

[00:32:22] Anna McNaught: Yes. 

[00:32:23] Jesus Ramirez: Why and how did you do that?

[00:32:26] Anna McNaught: Um, yeah, that's such a big one. That's something that I think I still work on all the time. Um, it's, it's something that I have to remind myself of because I think, especially in this digital world of social media and Instagram and TikTok, we're constantly seeing, we're we're getting bombarded with content all the time. And so if you're not fully in touch with yourself, you're constantly comparing yourself to what you see, or you just are one of the lucky for you who don't give a shit and you're like, I don't compare myself at all, you know. But many of us do and especially when it's coming at us full force in the face. And so I think it's easy to look at things that, other people have made and wonder, okay, why am I not that good? Or why am I not creating enough? Why am I not spitting content out every day? What's wrong with me? I'm lazy, blah, blah, blah. Like all those ways that we are not nice to ourselves. And so one of the things that has really helped me overcome it is one, remembering to talk to myself the way a good friend would talk to me. Like, you. would never say, Anna, you're so lazy. Like, what's wrong with you? Why aren't you putting a piece of content out every day? You would never say you're not as good as some of the other artists I've been seeing lately. You know, you would, you would tell me nice things regardless of how you actually felt. And so I remembered to talk to myself the way someone who loves me would talk to me. And then I also started to, um, do affirmations of reminding myself like, I am enough, I am great at what I do again, so, so woowoo And it's so like what people, it's kind of trendy right now, but it really does help and just also, Journaling and writing about the things I've achieved and, um, continuing to surround myself with people who make me feel really good and where we can elevate each other rather than any sort of jealousy or comparison or any of those toxic traits. 

[00:34:30] Jesus Ramirez: No, for sure. And you know, I heard from a therapist once, and basically what you said, what a slight difference is that the way you should talk to yourself is as if you're talking to the child version of you as you mentioned, you wouldn't tell someone you love or a child like you're bad unless they were your high school teacher.

[00:34:47] Anna McNaught: Yes, I know. 

[00:34:49] Jesus Ramirez: You know, like you wouldn't say those things. 

So you have to look at it through that lens. And I go through that all the time. And I have to oftentimes remind myself is like I'm trying to do things at a high level in multiple areas. And what I mean by that is, for example, the Photoshop Training Channel, YouTube, and everything under that umbrella. I'm posting YouTube videos, I'm posting TikTok videos, reels, I'm creating all this content. And thankfully I have a large enough following where it's significant, but at the same time, that's only like, just a slice of the pie. 

The other slice of the pie is I also am trying to do really well in my client work because I really enjoyed making these movie posters and TV shows that I'm working on and all that. And that's essentially another full-time job. And then I also have this podcast and then whatever random project comes my way, like the speak engagements. That's another thing. I, I was just updating my bio on my website and I realized that I've spoken at over 40 conferences. I had no idea, you know, so like, I have to put things into context.

Thank you. I have to put things into context. It's like I'm actually doing a lot. and then I think of when I started and when I started, uh, the Photoshop Training Channel. The year that I got to a hundred thousand followers that year, I only posted 10 videos. I posted 10 videos in the last month.

You know what I mean? So like, the amount of content I'm creating now, relatively speaking to then is, you know, 10 x. But I don't see that, cause I'm kind of living it. So I have to remind myself that you're like, you're doing too much. If anything, slow down, you know? But in my mind, I'll see Aaron post up a video.

I'm like, oh man, Aaron posted a video this week and I haven't done one yet. You know, like, so so yeah, you're right. And what we forget about is the content we see on, Instagram or whatever, it's all curated content, right? We're, we're portraying like the best of ourselves in that feed. And when you see somebody else , you have to realize that that's curated content and is meant to, put them at the best possible light, and it's not a hundred percent reality. It might be 10% reality.

[00:36:44] Anna McNaught: Yep. A hundred percent. I resonate with everything you're saying, and I think I, I think there's just this, uh, tug and pull right now between people talking about going viral and constantly posting something and like, oh, you wanna be seen in the algorithm? You gotta post every day. You gotta do a reel, you gotta do this, you gotta do that. and I am okay with separating myself from that and saying, no, I don't need to do that every day, because if I do, I'm going to fall into that trap of comparison and jealousy and all the evil traits when I post something that is quality work that I feel proud of, and then take the time to go out and do other things that I enjoy, such as being in nature or spending time with friends and anything that fires me up, then like I said, you know, I'm gonna be a better version of myself and I'm gonna show up in such a strong and powerful way that I don't need to be posting every day. Granted, I may not get as many likes and views and whatever, but like, you know, yeah. Okay. So maybe that correlates to money in some form, but at the end of the day, at the end of our lives, is that gonna matter? Like life is too short and I have realized that so much in the past four years of dealing with my mom, having cancer, of losing my mom to cancer like the little things such as the algorithm are bullshit and they don't matter.

[00:38:09] Jesus Ramirez: Mm-hmm. And they do not.

[00:38:11] Anna McNaught: What matters is this people you spend your time with and how you feel about your life and the things you do. 

[00:38:17] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah. How you feel about your life, I think that's key because how you feel about your life could be different than how I feel about my life, but if we're both happy, I shouldn't tell you this is what you need to do to be happy, Anna, cuz this is what I'm doing, this is what makes me happy.

Like, no, not at all. 

[00:38:29] Anna McNaught: Exactly. 

[00:38:30] Jesus Ramirez: It could be different, you know?

[00:38:31] Anna McNaught: Exactly. A hundred percent. I had to have my little rant there.

[00:38:35] Jesus Ramirez: No good. I love rants. Sometimes have to hold myself back cuz I'm like, wait, this show's not about me, it's about my guests. I'm gonna hold my rants back. Cuz I, I oftentimes, when I go on a, on a rant about whatever random thing I'm thinking about at the moment. 

Anna's Advice On Finding Clients

[00:38:49] Jesus Ramirez: as you can imagine, a lot of people watching are people who are either starting their design career, photographer career, their creative career, and they wanna increase it to a level where the guests might be at. And in your case, you've worked with a lot of big clients, including, Adobe and a bunch of others. I think you've worked with Audi, if I'm not mistaken, so like really well-known brands. How do you go about finding those clients? Do they find you? What advice would you have for someone who's just starting out and they wanna work with Audi or whatever other company?

[00:39:22] Anna McNaught: I would like to say that I have exact concrete advice of reaching out, et cetera. um, but I have had most of, almost every client that I've had for, um, myself specifically not talking about Leave The Map, um, they have all come to me and I think that turning that into advice is just continuing to share and post what you feel proud of. I think it even goes back to my little rant of posting things that make you feel really good because when you're showing up as your truest, most authentic self and posting the things you wanna be hired for, that's what you, end up getting hired for and so I've been really lucky in that way of having clients come to me because they have seen my artwork, because they have seen my videos and my reels and any of the teachings that I've done. Um, so they come looking for that exact content. In terms of, Leave The Map however, we've spent a lot of time doing outreach. We used to try to, I think, reach out to like 20 clients a week or so, sending cold emails and to be honest, it just like some would work out and some wouldn't. And again, we found that when we are posting some of our best work through our photography or funny videos of James and I just being ourselves and when we started posting on TikTok, that was when all these brands started coming to us. Cuz they're like, we want what you're posting. 

[00:40:52] Jesus Ramirez: would you say that the cold emails were not as successful as just creating engaging content and people just reaching out to you?

[00:40:58] Anna McNaught: Yeah, I would say a hundred percent. Which kind of makes me bummed because it's something that I've learned so much over the years that cold email does work and that it's, it's such solid advice to be like, yes, reach out to 20 clients per week and then you'll get a job. But it just never seems to work for us. And I don't know if we personally are doing something wrong or that for us it's just meant to happen organically or, or what. But anytime we are posting stuff that we enjoy, we get a client anytime we're reaching out and pitching, it doesn't work out.

[00:41:34] Jesus Ramirez: Right. You know, I hate to say it, but I, I think I've had a similar experience where the clients that I'm most proud of, I didn't seek out, they came to me. And obviously, it's not like, oh yeah, I just posted this beautiful art piece and people came to me, and that, that goes back to 10 plus years of public work. And then 10 plus years of like work behind the scenes and you know, me learning the, the trade. But I guess what I'm trying to say is, is you know, you're not gonna get a client if you just post one picture on instagram. You need to have a body of work because you might have an awesome photo, you might post the, the best photo in the world and people like it and all that, but then they click on your profile or your portfolio and there's no work, a sequence of work. Then people probably won't contact you. So unfortunately, I guess fortunately you do need to put in the work so that. People are confident that you know what you're doing rather than just a one-off. And in this day and age, almost anyone could go on Mid Journey and generate a 

[00:42:38] Anna McNaught: Ugh. 

[00:42:39] Jesus Ramirez: you know? 

[00:42:39] Anna McNaught: I know. 

[00:42:40] Jesus Ramirez: How do you feel about that?

How do you feel about AI in general? I know you and I were just in an AI event, a week ago in San Francisco, but generally speaking, how do you feel about AI? And then follow up question, how do you feel about AI in Photoshop?

Anna's Mastermind Group

[00:42:53] Anna McNaught: Yes. Um, I wanna, I'm gonna get into that. I wanna just quickly go back to, um, in terms of posting a body of work to follow up to what you said, I think that's so spot on and so true because yeah, you can't just post one image and expect like, oh, clients are gonna start coming in. It's the years of hard work or just the really true dedication to your craft. And one of the things that we taught our mastermind students for Leave The Map, when we ran a three month group program teaching people how to grow business online, um, one of the things we told people that were just starting out was to create a big body of spec work and to like, um, for, photographers or videographers, uh, who wanted to get hired for travel work, like, take your Patagonia backpack And take it out on a hike and do a whole photo shoot with it. Make a video, get creative. How, what's the story of the backpack? How did it come on this hike with you? Where, where did it get made? Did you meet someone with this backpack? You know, creating some fun content around it. And so that's something that we did with Leave The Map when we first got started and something that James specifically still does with video. And I think, that's a really good way to build beyond the one image and creating a full body of work if you're just getting started. 

[00:44:11] Jesus Ramirez: Tell me more about this group. How do you, um, first of all, how does it work? Can anyone join? What's the whole process like? 

[00:44:18] Anna McNaught: Yeah, so we did, it was during Covid when we weren't able to travel. We're like, how are we gonna make money? What are we gonna do? So we decided to do a three month, um, online group program where basically, uh, people signed up. I think we started it in March and they signed up, and then we had a call every week until May. Um, yeah, like, three months. And, and uh, we talked, we walked through everything from the very beginning stage, started with mindset actually, and how to kind of get yourself in the business beginning mindset all the way through. Like how to start a website, like growing your Instagram, Pinterest, email list. Uh, E-commerce, like everything you can think of in this three month phase. and it was so awesome. We had 15 students and um, they all have gone on to do something with it, whether it was start their own business or kind of work with other clients and everything. And, um, one of our students has blown up on Instagram. She has like 350,000 followers and she's an illustrator. She got a book deal. 

[00:45:30] Jesus Ramirez: What's her handle

[00:45:31] Anna McNaught: uh, um, to you from Steph? 

[00:45:34] Jesus Ramirez: To you from Steph? 

[00:45:35] Anna McNaught: Yes. 

[00:45:35] Jesus Ramirez: We'll link, we'll put a graphic or down below in the description. 

[00:45:39] Anna McNaught: Yeah. 

Yes. She's amazing. And so that, that was like really fun to do and we were, we were gonna do it again, but we got so busy with client work once kind of the covid restrictions lifted that we never got back into it. But it is something that I thoroughly enjoyed and would wanna do again, cuz I have such a wealth of knowledge that I could give to people that are just starting out.

[00:46:03] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah. You know, I I feel the same way, but I, don't know if I would ever do a program like that simply for two reasons. Number one is, I am bad when it comes to like, every Wednesday we'll have a phone call cause I probably cancel every time. Or, or you know, cause I'm just like, my schedule's all over the place. Um, and number two is, I feel that even though I was somebody who grew up with a complete, I did a 180 in terms of my mindset how I wanted my life to be around my third, I was probably, you're about 30 years old, right? So 

[00:46:29] Anna McNaught: Yeah. 32. 

[00:46:31] Jesus Ramirez: So I've actually, I started the Photoshop Training Channel at 31. So around that age is when I had my whole mindset shift. 

And even though I'm a person who went from one end of the spectrum to the other, I don't know how to properly convey, you know, like, well, You need to think about things this way. I feel like I'm. You know, like a caricature of Dr. Phil going, stop it, stop it. Don't think like this, think like that you know what I mean? Like, and, and I don't have the proper words and I'm not articulate enough, I guess, to convey like, this is why you shouldn't think this, this is why you should look at it this way. I feel like I'm too, direct and I'll probably make people feel bad, so I probably wouldn't be good at it.

[00:47:10] Anna McNaught: I think you would be awesome at it. I think you'd be great. But yeah, it is so much work. It was just, it was a lot. It took tons of pre-prep every before, every weekly call we would sit down and like really get into it and be like, what are we teaching? We'd make, um, we had a whole interface where they could go on and get everything. So they'd get the call recording, they'd get call notes. Um, they'd get a full slideshow of what we talked, about, and then they'd get journal prompts and all of our resources. So we like gave the full playbook, you know, and yeah, it was so great. I, I would love to do it again now that I have all the content to, I'm like, I might as well do something with it. 

[00:47:50] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you, if you have part of it done, why not?

[00:47:54] Anna McNaught: I know. 

[00:47:55] Jesus Ramirez: Well make sure to let me know. 

[00:47:57] Anna McNaught: Yeah. In the works. 

Anna's Thoughts On AI 

[00:47:59] Jesus Ramirez: Awesome. So going back to that AI question, how do you feel about AI art? How do you feel about AI inside of photoshop?

[00:48:06] Anna McNaught: Yes. It's such a tough question because I know it's so dividing, there's so many opinions on it. Um, I see both the pros and cons to AI art in general. I think, that in many ways people are getting carried away with just making something and posting it, and it's like, this is my art and then they're blowing up, you know, people have hundreds of thousands of followers on Instagram from something that they didn't even make from scratch, And then are selling it as prints or NFTs. Um, so that's a whole separate thing to me. But on the other hand, I also, in ways that people are using it for good, I see it as a tool. Um, I myself have been using Mid Journey to create like pieces of things and then using it to comp into stuff and and I think we can evolve or we can die. And so we can kind of like move with the times and learn about AI and try it out for ourselves and test things. And so in that way I see it as a positive and we're continuing to grow as artists and designers and creators in general. Um, it is a little scary because what happens with all these nuanced things that we need and that where you can't prove it and stuff. So that's where the line gets blurry. Um, in terms of AI in Photoshop, I think it's such a game changer. Um, at the amount of time it has taken me over the years to clone stamp stuff or add in backgrounds or add in certain elements that now we're seeing with generative fill. It's absolutely mind blowing. However, I also see the downside of are we just gonna start piecing things together and not kind of creating art from scratch the way we always have. So it's like, I wanna speed up our workflows. On one hand, I want to see us progress as digital creators, but I also don't want us to lose the ability to create something from our minds, um, from scratch and then to use our hands to make that versus just a computer thinking.  So you can see I'm torn. 

[00:50:19] Jesus Ramirez: No, for sure. For sure. This is one of those topics where I'm like too strict and too stern with my, like, this is how I feel, period. You know, like, 

[00:50:26] Anna McNaught: Yeah. 

[00:50:28] Jesus Ramirez: the way that I see it is is like this. I used to say it was a lot like when analog cameras switched over to digital, but that's no longer the analogy that I compare it to. I think a more accurate analogy would be desktop publishing. So a lot of designers used to like literally draw a logo by hand. Like for example, Carlos Perez David is, the gentleman who drew the very first Apple logo by hand, which eventually became the logo that we all know. So I interviewed that artist and he literally drew and used to draw logos completely by hand. Eventually desktop publishing came along because of Apple and other companies and all these people that had that skill to do everything by hand, their talent almost became slightly less valuable because now a computer could drop perfect circle or perfect line or, you know, just, just plot it all out in the computer with Illustrator or whatever application. So that is what I'm hearing a lot of artists say now, it no longer requires that much skill. is dead. And I'm like, well no, because when desktop publishing came out, it required less skill to like draw a perfect line or perfect circle, but you still needed some sort of art sense to create. So I think design is not dead. I think it's alive if ever, if not more. We just have to figure out ways of utilizing this new tool. That is not to say though, I'm very well aware that we are going to lose a lot of jobs that goes without saying and it's terrible. But a lot of jobs were lost in the development of desktop publishing. A lot of jobs were lost when we went from analog to digital so like every step, evolution does create, a loss of jobs for a certain segment in the population, and that sucks. But in my perspective, it also creates new jobs. So, we'll, we'll see what happens with this technology. I don't know, but I'm, I'm, optimistic. 

[00:52:22] Anna McNaught: Yeah. Yeah. I'm, very curious to see what happens and, and what kind of jobs are created from it. I just, I hope that AI doesn't take over the world. I find chat. I know that's a whole separate thing. 

I find ChatGPT to maybe be more, it, it's so good, but maybe more detrimental to the future than art in terms of mid journey and Photoshop, generative fill and everything, uh, Firefly and whatnot as well, I think like ChatGPT could be a concern. 

[00:52:55] Jesus Ramirez: I agree. Well well here, let me give you an example. You and I can both go on my journey and type in, fluffy cat, sitting on a couch or something or create a beautiful picture. 

There's a cat. But with ChatGPT, I've been able to code applications. And even though I was a developer over 10 years ago, and I have some basic knowledge of coding, I'm nowhere near the level of a person that should be coding apps and I've actually, you know, I quote unquote coded, I didn't do anything. I just said, gimme the code for whatever copy and paste and boom, I have an app. But I've been able to do that with ChatGPT, and that's a tool, you know, so I was able to create a tool that can now do things for me by using ChatGPT, whereas I feel like a picture of a cat on a cow, which is whatever, it's just a picture. 

[00:53:40] Anna McNaught: Right, right. Yes, exactly. I know. And yeah, I didn't even think, I know people have been using it for code. I didn't even think of creating an entire app using it. And I mean, yeah, that could be a whole separate conversation, but some of the things, it's just like, what? And then also the, uh, authenticity of stuff 

[00:54:01] Jesus Ramirez: Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:02] Anna McNaught: anymore, you know? It's like, okay, so someone writes you a beautiful handwritten card. Well, did you write it or did ChatGPT write it? 

ChatGPT's Role In Jesus' Wedding

[00:54:09] Jesus Ramirez: I have a confession, Anna. 

[00:54:11] Anna McNaught: Uh Oh 

[00:54:12] Jesus Ramirez: So as you know, 

[00:54:14] Anna McNaught: Don't tell me you're writing your vows with ChatGPT. 

[00:54:17] Jesus Ramirez: So as you know, I'm engaged and my fiance and I sent out, save the dates , which included a QR code that went to a website and it's our wedding website. And we used ChatGPT to write the like, welcome paragraph on the website.

So if you go to the website,

[00:54:35] Anna McNaught: Oh my. 

[00:54:36] Jesus Ramirez: It's, it's like 90, like we told it, we're getting married here and this is what we want and, and, it generated this thing and it was so good that we kept like 95% of it. We just made a few tweaks. So, so yes, I've used, 

Jesus talks more about A.I.

[00:54:50] Jesus Ramirez: And you know what the, the crazy th- well, you know what the crazy thing about all this is the very first episode of this podcast, today's creator was my good friend, mark Heaps, was heavily involved in the AI world. He works for a company called Groc, where they are creating better ways of compute, which basically makes this whole AI thing work behind the scenes. This Anyway, so he knows a lot about ai. So we had a conversation about AI in that podcast episode, which was recorded in the last week of december. I did not know what ChatGPT was.

[00:55:23] Anna McNaught: Wow. 

[00:55:24] Jesus Ramirez: I didn't know. Now I've used it to develop, as I mentioned, an app and other things in my, the welcome paragraph to my wedding webpage.

But the point is, I don't know everything about technology, but I like to think that if something new comes up, at least know about it. 

You know? I don't wanna say I was like super early in the game, but I was definitely not late to AI. But the point I'm trying to make is in about five months, maybe six, it's incredible how good it's gotten, you know? And I can't imagine what it'll be like in six years, you know, a year. Not even, not even six.

[00:56:01] Anna McNaught: I know it's absolutely mind blowing. You even think about with Mid Journey what it was putting out. Uh, what was that like? Less than a year ago, I remember in October 

I was making stuff and it was still gooey. It had like the weird pixely, like magic dust in it. And now couple months later it's like creating gorgeous photographs. Same with ChatGPT. It's learning so fast. It's a blessing and a curse. 

[00:56:29] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah. We're, we're all dead.

[00:56:31] Anna McNaught: Yeah.

We'll see. 

[00:56:33] Jesus Ramirez: It's, you know, what a, what a great way to end the show. Just, 

[00:56:37] Anna McNaught: Yes. 

[00:56:38] Jesus Ramirez: Just sad about us getting-

[00:56:40] Anna McNaught: We might need need to end it on a happy note. 

Lightning Round Questions

[00:56:42] Jesus Ramirez: Well, you know what? Maybe we can get happier with the lightning round questions. I like to end the show with a series of lightning around questions.

These could be one word answers, the questions could lead to a conversation, or you can say, skip totally up to you. Does that sound good? 

[00:56:55] Anna McNaught: Let's go. 

[00:56:57] Jesus Ramirez: All right. Let's go. My first question for you, Anna, is why is teaching so important to you?

[00:57:03] Anna McNaught: This might be a little bit of a longer one right off the bat, but I would say It's in my blood. My parents, Um, were environmental educators for their careers and, um, my mom was a high, a substitute, a substitute high school science teacher for a little bit of time. It just, uh, I grew up surrounded by it and then, uh, surrounded by art too. My grandfather was a well-known children illustrator, and so the pairing of the two just came together from like birth basically for me. And I think in teaching, I'm able to give back everything that I've learned over the years. To other people. And you know, it continues to evolve our creativity as a whole and hopefully to keep us without having to use AI for everything because we'll have those creative 

[00:57:57] Jesus Ramirez: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:57] Anna McNaught: continue to have teachers. It's just very important to me to give back and to keep the train going. 

[00:58:04] Jesus Ramirez: Makes total total sense. You already told us one shocking fact about yourselves, which was you applied for an escort company. 

Tell us another shocking fact about yourself.

[00:58:15] Anna McNaught: Let's see, uh, I have the Guinness Book World Record, longest tongue, and I'm not gonna stick it out. 

[00:58:21] Jesus Ramirez: Oh my God. Okay, so next time we are in person and we need to talk about this cuz I have the 180 of that. My tongue is like, it doesn't go anywhere. Like people will be like, stick your tongue out. I'm like, I am. 

[00:58:33] Anna McNaught: Oh,

[00:58:35] Jesus Ramirez: So. 

[00:58:37] Anna McNaught: That will be in person thing. We'll save for next time. 

[00:58:40] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah. So actually there's a photo of you and me that was taken approximately at about 2:00 AM and it's at the Adobe San francisco office. It's a little Polaroid. You know what I'm talking about? And next time we go into that office, we need to take another photo with our tongues out, and then people are gonna be like, wait, why isn't Jesus sticking out his tongue? 

[00:59:02] Anna McNaught: Well if you remember, my tongue was bright blue in that, and I wasn't even sticking it out the full amount. 

[00:59:08] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah. Interesting. and I I didn't know that you had that record, but it, but very interesting to know. 

[00:59:13] Anna McNaught: I never actually submitted it because I don't want people to know that, but I measured compared to what is recorded and mine's longer.

Yeah, 

[00:59:22] Jesus Ramirez: That is, oh my God, okay. We, you have to do it. You have to do it. You want it to become a household name. 

[00:59:29] Anna McNaught: That's true. 

[00:59:32] Jesus Ramirez: Oh my God. Have you ever had an I "I made it" moment? 

[00:59:37] Anna McNaught: Uh, yeah. A, a number of them actually, I would say one of them for sure was, um, standing on the Adobe Max teaching one of the Adobe Match Max teaching stages and being able to be like, oh my God, I'm here and I'm teaching, um, as well as seeing my art in the demo. Um, and then I feel like there's been so many little moments and then self-worth comes in and comparison and I'm like, oh, I'm not good enough.

[01:00:07] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah. 

[01:00:09] Anna McNaught: But yes, I have.

[01:00:11] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah. Awesome. 

What is the best compliment you've ever received? 

[01:00:15] Anna McNaught: Uh, that's such a good one. I think probably from multiple students just saying that, Um, my courses have taught them so much about whether it be Photoshop or ins, growing an Instagram account and hearing that come back to me of like, this changed my life. I was able to actually start a business from this. I was able to create something I've always dreamed of anytime I get compliments like that, it's just like, mm. So 

[01:00:45] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah, Pick one. Teaching Photoshop or teaching business slash content creation. 

[01:00:50] Anna McNaught: Mm. 

[01:00:53] Jesus Ramirez: It's a hard one. I know. You can skip. 

[01:00:56] Anna McNaught: Uh, I think teaching Photoshop, 

[01:00:58] Jesus Ramirez: Okay, good. Oh, you're only saying that cause you're talking to me.

[01:01:01] Anna McNaught: I know. 

No, I think I still have to go with that one. 

[01:01:06] Jesus Ramirez: Oh, okay. What is something people often get wrong about you? Any misconceptions about Anna McNaught?

[01:01:14] Anna McNaught: I think sometimes people either think that I'm a bitch or that I'm ditzy because I am a, 

[01:01:21] Jesus Ramirez: I thought so too. No, just kidding. 

[01:01:23] Anna McNaught: Oh my god. 

[01:01:24] Jesus Ramirez: Kidding. 

[01:01:26] Anna McNaught: Um, I I'm, as you know, I'm super bubbly and I laugh a lot. People will probably be like, this girl laughs too much. This girl laughs so loud. I'm always smiling. I'm always like, diririri And I think that can come off as like just being shallow or ditzy. And that's so the opposite of me. You know, give me, as, you know, give some time to get to know me and you'll see, that I have a whole deep basin of things. 

[01:01:53] Jesus Ramirez: Well, just last week we were at the hotel lobby, maybe till like one or two in the morning talking and just laughing and then I was like, we're the only people in this lobby. And we're- 

[01:02:03] Anna McNaught: That was the best. I love that. 

[01:02:05] Jesus Ramirez: At some point I thought, oh my god, they're gonna get security out here And these people outta here. 

[01:02:11] Anna McNaught: And I love that it w we were just like fully no alcohol, just sitting and talking. It 

[01:02:16] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, although the bar was close. I did want to drink to be fair.

[01:02:21] Anna McNaught: Yes. Yeah. Same. 

[01:02:23] Jesus Ramirez: What is the most difficult part about being a content creator or Photoshop artist? 

However you wanna define your role.

[01:02:31] Anna McNaught: I think it to bring it kind of full circle to what we were talking about within the hustle mode of having to create and spit content out all the time and beat the algorithm and all that, I, find that extremely challenging because I think as artists, we're not designed to work that way. We're designed to take breaks and absorb the world around us.

When we're constantly spitting workout, it just, it's not gonna be the best. So you look at famous artists over history, they didn't spit something out every single day. It was like, it took so much time, years, even for some pieces to be fully developed. And so I think trying to balance my root of who I am combined with the current state of content is really hard. I don't know how to overcome it.

[01:03:22] Jesus Ramirez: I completely agree. I understand completely. Next one is, you could master any skill, what would it be and why?

[01:03:28] Anna McNaught: Oh. I think shuffled dancing, 

[01:03:31] Jesus Ramirez: Shuffle dancing. Why shuffle dancing? 

[01:03:34] Anna McNaught: That's the first one that popped into my head. It's probably not the best skill to master, but um, you know, like cool shuffled dancing to like e DM music, right? So, I've always wanted to be able to do that and I've been kind of learning and I have a few moves down and so just something like, I want it to be so smooth and seamless that I can just be at a party with friends and like, bust it out and have everyone be like, oh my God. 

[01:03:59] Jesus Ramirez: Wow. Yeah. You know, I, okay, so I'm gonna tell you like this, this crazy dream fantasy thing I always have. I can't sing to save my life, but I wish I could sing. And oftentimes I'll be like, oh my God, would it be cool to like sing at a stage like at Adobe Max? But I have no, I have no, singing talent.

[01:04:22] Anna McNaught: I have this fantasy of like being going to a karaoke-

[01:04:26] Jesus Ramirez: Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:27] Anna McNaught: -knowing that I can sing and being like, oh, I'm gonna do this song. And then just like, ha and everyone just being so shocked by it. 

[01:04:35] Jesus Ramirez: So I used to play soccer with a, a guy who was in a, band and he invited me and other teammates to his birthday party, and they were doing karaoke. But all of his friend circles is people who are professional musicians. So we were doing karaoke and I was like, there is no way I'm gonna go up there cuz everybody there is like a professional singer. And it was ridiculous how good they were. And then me with zero talent, I was like, Nope, not going to. 

[01:05:04] Anna McNaught: Yep. Nope, you cannot. 

[01:05:06] Jesus Ramirez: Pass. I am not going up. 

[01:05:09] Anna McNaught: These are challenging. I thought I'd be able to like, fly 'em off. 

[01:05:12] Jesus Ramirez: Like, it's like, what's your favorite color?

[01:05:14] Anna McNaught: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, ooh, I have to deep think about this one. 

[01:05:19] Jesus Ramirez: What would you like to be remembered for? What mark do you want to leave in the world?

[01:05:24] Anna McNaught: That's such a good one too. Um, I wanna be remembered for my charisma and the art that I create in combination with always being willing to help give back to my community.

[01:05:42] Jesus Ramirez: Well, that's how I think about you.

[01:05:44] Anna McNaught: Aw, that's amazing. Thank you. 

[01:05:47] Jesus Ramirez: You're welcome. 

[01:05:48] Anna McNaught: This is so fun. We should keep going. 

[01:05:50] Jesus Ramirez: What is your favorite city in the world besides the one you live in and why? 

[01:05:53] Anna McNaught: Oh, I knew, I knew that would be a travel question. Does it have to be a city or a place? 

[01:05:59] Jesus Ramirez: I mean, it could be a, a location. Yeah, like a,

[01:06:01] Anna McNaught: Okay. Okay. Um, 

[01:06:03] Jesus Ramirez: like it could be like a national park or something, what I assume you would pick. 

[01:06:07] Anna McNaught: Yeah, I'm actually looking up at, we have a bunch of postcards all over the wall here and I'm looking up at Jenny Lake in, Grand Tetons. And funny enough, that's one of my favorite national parks. And so many people will just drive through it there's kind of one main road through the Tetons. You look up at them, they're spectacular. Okay, great. We're done. You know, but, uh, James and I have spent a lot of time getting deep into that park and there's so many gorgeous, perfect crystal clear lakes, and then you have like the turquoise glacier water and it's just such a beautiful park.

And on our honeymoon, we camped way back from the Tetons, like up in the mountains overlooking them. And on this one night we had a campfire. We rented a van for our honeymoon, which is what got us into van life. But um, This one night we had full Milky way up above the van, our little fire in front and the Tetons in the distance.

So it has just become like a magical place. One of my favorite, favorite spots.

[01:07:14] Jesus Ramirez: Awesome. Never been there. And you know what? I feel like you and I have a lot in common one of the things that we don't have in common is I'm an indoor cat. Like you will not find me showering in a van.

[01:07:25] Anna McNaught: I'm an indoor cat. I love that. 

[01:07:28] Jesús Ramirez: Yeah. I'm like, people are like, we're gonna go camping. Do you want to go?

And I'm like, how far is the car from the campsite? Because if I can't visually see the car from the campsite, I'm not going and I'm not going more than a night. 

[01:07:38] Anna McNaught: Yeah. So we're definitely, definitely very different in that sense, cuz I'm like, I'm for sure outdoor, wild mountain lion. 

[01:07:46] Jesus Ramirez: There you go. Oh no, I'm, I'm like, Garfield, I'm, I'm inside the house all day long. Eating lasagna. 

[01:07:51] Anna McNaught: Yes, I do love that too.

[01:07:54] Jesus Ramirez: What is the most interesting thing you've learned in the last six months? And you also skipped over a profession. Did I ask you? Yeah. What is, did I ask you what a valuable professional lesson is you learned that translated over into your personal life or now? 

[01:08:06] Anna McNaught: I don't think so. But that one's such a, these are hard, these are like thinkers. 

[01:08:11] Jesus Ramirez: Yeah, we, I want quality for my listeners, Anna. 

Well tell you what, tell you what, if you can't think of any of that's cool, that only means that you get to think about them. And I'll have you back on.

[01:08:22] Anna McNaught: That's true. 

[01:08:24] Jesus Ramirez: Maybe, maybe, when you have either your new, mastermind group or a whole new course, or whatever you're, you're doing next, I'd love to have you back and talk about that , and then you'll have some answers for me.

[01:08:35] Anna McNaught: I would love that too. I think I'll give you kind of a combo of the two as a final answer to wrap things up, I think it kind of pairs back to what we were talking about a little bit with mindset and you know, that's one of the reasons you had me on. So I think it's a perfect way to, to wrap it all up.

Um, I would say, One of the most interesting things I've learned this year relating to the best thing I learned this year, and then tying into my personal life and something that extends into my professional life. You see this? I'm fully bringing it. together, um, is how to take care of me and, uh, whether again, like kind of going back to what we were talking about with the rest, like I have over the years beat myself up.

In terms of guilt, like if I lay down on the couch on a Tuesday or knock off work early or something, I'm guilty about it. I'm like, why would I do that? What's wrong with me? Everyone else is working until five o or working till five o'clock or later and everyone else is doing this. And once I learned how to get the guilt out of my inner psyche and really just relax and allow myself to be, I started to become much more successful and easygoing and, um, was able to produce better work because I was allowing myself to just exist and relax. And I, I think it took a lot of time. I'm still working on it, but continuing to dissolve that guilt feeling and get to know myself on a deeper and more meaningful level has really, like, in this past year, I would say, really has allowed me to kind of blossom into the fullest version of myself. 

[01:10:21] Jesus Ramirez: That's amazing. Great answer. And I can't think of a better way to end the show. 

[01:10:25] Anna McNaught: I love it. 

[01:10:26] Jesus Ramirez: Anna, thank you so much for joining, for having being in the show with me here today.

[01:10:30] Anna McNaught: Thank you so much for having me. It was so much fun.